I am making a pair of socks for a man. I have knitted the heel flap and am ready to turn the heel. I did one sock and shoved it on the foot but I would like the heel a little bigger. Is there a method to increasing the turn of the heel? Most patterns call for a five sts heel and I would like to increase it to a 9 sts heel. Without doing the heel more than once is there a mathematical or other way to do it so the number of stitches are equal when turning the heel?

If I'm understanding your question correctly and you're talking about the number of stitches in the center of a top-down gusset-&-heel-flap style heel. . .

9 stitches is 4 more than 5 stitches. When centered, that means 2 stitches more on each end of the center section between decreases/turns. So, you could follow the 5-stitch directions, but work 2 more sts before your first turn, then 4 more (both of the 2's) before second turn, then continue as written from there, consuming one more stitch at each end each time.

Do you also want to add more rows to your heel flap, to make it deeper? Then you'll be picking up more stitches along the side edges because those edges are longer. You'll also need to continue your gusset decreases until you get back to the number of stitches you want for the rest of the foot.

This 5-stitch thing isn't exactly a rule. If you think about it, worsted will have a different number of heel stitches than lace-weight.

I think in general you knit across two thirds of the heel stitches on the first short row, and purl back over one third on the next row. If that's too narrow, adjust per MtMom's suggestion. If the heel ends up too shallow that way, check how many stitches were reserved for the heel flap--if it was fewer than half the total number of stitches, go back and use more stitches (i.e., leaving fewer for the instep).

I am working from Ann Budd's book, "Getting Started Knitting Socks" and the yarn is 8sts to the inch. All was well until turning the heel. Yes I also noticed that the heel was shallower than the first pair I made. I even before asking the question went into all my sock patterns some which predate my birth and they all have a 5sts center. Thank you for the advice. I think I will shove it nicely back on my son's foot and take a real good look before I frogg if I need to.

I have knit dozens of pairs of socks, mostly in fingering weight on size 2 dpns. Unless I'm making a fancy pattern or using a different weight yarn. I cast on 60 stitches so I end up with 30 stitches on my heel flap. I routinely use about 22 stitches on the first short row, leaving 8 stitches on each end. I guess this is a variation of a "German" heel turn. It is simple, roomy, fits well and easy to remember. I could and sometimes have done them mostly in my sleep. I think I got this technique years ago from the "Wisconsin Winter Socks" book by Cottage Creations. It may still be available.

I added the sts so that I have 9 and compared it to the 5sts on which I haven't frogged yet. The heel is fuller which is what I wanted but I am not sure about adding rows. By adding more rows do I just slip the first st in each row until I have the length in the heel I want?
This is my second pair of socks and I am using Budd's formula based on circumference. I like the idea and look of a fuller heel. My first pair was made with only 48 sts cast on and the heel is perfect, nice and full and fits well as they are my socks. Of all the books I have none of them address the heel fullness if you are using a particular heel style.

I guess I don't understand what you mean by 5 and 9 stitches.

In turning a heel, you work across about two-thirds of the heel stitches, work two together, (and sometimes one more) and turn, then come back across a third of the total st, work the next stitches as on previous row, and turn. There should be the same number of unworked st on each side of the worked stitches.

For succeeding rows, when you work the two st together you use the two stitches on either side of the gap where you turned previously. Repeat until all stitches have been used up.

If the heel isn't wide enough, you start off with more than two-thirds of the st. If the heel isn't deep enough, you use fewer than two-thirds. If the pattern calls for working one more stitch after the "work 2 tog," you can get more depth by not doing this.

If your last message asks about working rows without picking up unused stitches at the ends, I think you'll end up with unpleasant holes in the heel.

Math,

It might be better to continue knitting the sock until you have finished the gusset decrease and then have you son slip the sock on for heel sizing at that point. Having just finished a pair of socks for my size 12 foot, a similar heel was actually a bit bigger than it needed to be. It may be that after you get back to your original number of stitches, the sock will fit as you want it to. You can place a life line now so that if you have to frog, it will be easier to get the sock back on the needles later.

mathwizard, how is the sock fitting now?

Thank you for your advice! I think that putting in a life line and do the gusset and then the decreases and then having my son try it on will be the best. If I have to frogg then I will have a good point to restart from. At that time I will then decide what to do. Where do you all get your information? By making socks or is there a book which has it all? Or is it you have made lots of them?

Made lots of socks and have lots of books. The one I use that has a template for creating your own pattern (like your Budd book) is Katharina Buss's Big Book of Knitting, but I only use it for general guidance in situations like yours (for instance, for the heel flap it says to knit the same number of rows as you have heel stitches, minus 2--e.g., 28 for a 60-stitch sock with 30 st for the heel.)

There's nothing like trying out different things for yourself and accumulating your own experience.

No one book has it *all*, but some go into more depth on particular styles.
For instance, for short-row heels that use YO's each time you turn, THE book might be Priscilla Gibson-Roberts' Simple Socks Plain and Fancy -- one style, lots of detail on customizing and several variations.
For exotic shapings, there's Cat Bordhi's New Pathways for Sock Knitters.
For the traditional top-down, heel-flap and gusset sock, like you're doing, you have many authors to choose from. Ann Budd's book is very good. Even Elizabeth Zimmermann tackles socks in a latter chapter of Knitting Without Tears. And I think Wendy Johnson (of WendyKnits) recently published a how-to sock book. I haven't seen it, but expect it will be instructive, accessible, and helpful.

Thank you for the help! I forgot I have Katherine Buss's book. I have some new reading to do.

I have turned the gusset and there are no hole, perfect! That is always a concern even on my second pair. The heel has nine sts in the short rows when most patterns call for 5. It fits perfect! I didn't add any rows after turning the heel figuring if necessary I could frogg but I don't have to!!! Thank you for all the help! I did my reading and listened to all your advice and the socks are perfect! Just have to finish them to the toe but the heel is perfect!

Great! Congratulations!