I'm working k2, p2 rib right now and I'm getting frustrated that the k right next to the p is big and distorted. Anyone know why this happens and/or know a trick to get that column of knits nice and tidy? I've tried tugging on the k stitch, tugging on the 1st p stitch, tugging on the second p stitch and I've realized that tugging must not be the answer. Any ideas?

Try knitting the purls with the same tension you'd knit an entire row of purls and see if that helps. In other words, DON'T think about tightening the stitches.

I've noticed that when my stitches get sloppier and sloppier *looking* it's because I'm trying too hard to keep them tight.

I tend to Norwegian purl ribbing because it keeps the yarn in the back of the work, but I have to be VERY careful on the first two knit stitches not to tighten too much or they turn out hideous. And contrarily, if the last two stitches are knit stitches (making the first two stitches of the reverse side purls) *that* end is noticeably tighter than the rest of the stitches.

So I have to be conscious about not knitting too tightly at either end or I get one super-tight end and one super-sloppy end. Crazy.

Have you had the same issue anytime you do a 2x2 rib or is it significantly more noticeable with this particular project. The fiber and yarn can affect how our knitting looks. I can generally do a smooth looking 1x1 rib with no problems but there are a few yarns where the knit stitches on my 1x1 are slanted in opposite directions creating a zig-zag look rather than a smooth column -- and this while knitting in the round no less.

Since it seemed to occur only with some yarns, I stopped trying to figure out why and decided that wash & wear would eventually resolve it.

My understanding is that the difference in the way 1x1 ribbing looks has to do with whether the yarn is spun with an "S-twist" or a "Z-twist." I can never remember which is which without looking it up, but with one the stitch looks like this:\/
with the other it looks like this: |/

I think either way looks fine as long as it's consistent throughout the piece. And since I can't do anything about the way the yarn I've selected is spun, I share KT's attitude about it--washing and wearing will improve it. 1x1 ribbing is a bear to do evenly (as evidenced by some of the drunken-looking examples in knitting instruction books)so I'm just glad when I get nice straight columns.

Tension is the issue here like others have said----all I know when I first started to knit this was a huge issue now years later it seems to just work out. I wish I had a clear answer for you but I don't . . . I guess my tension has leveled out after years.

Baa Baa, that is *very* interesting. Hmm. I do notice my 1x1 ribbing is always better if I Norwegian purl, but I have wondered what the deal was with the zig-zag ribbing. I'm going to have to look more closely at yarn, now.

I just looked up z-twist because I know nothing about spinning, and what I found out was that Z-twist is yarn spun with the diagonal in the same direction as the diagonal in the letter Z, and S-twist is the other. The information I just read said that to create a balanced yarn, the plies should be twisted together in the opposite direction as the individual plies. That is, if the plies were spun with an S twist, they should be plied together with a Z twist.

Very interesting.

As has been pointed out correctly by previous respondents, there are two issues here.

Firstly the yarn.

Manufacturers have to sell you yarn which looks good in the ball or on the skein. Sadly I fear that some have no regard what happens next, but if you by your yarn in a shop, you can often see samples knitted up to see what it looks like. When I started knitting [half a century ago!] there really was only two kinds of twist, normal "rope," where the plies are over-twisted in the same direction and allowed to re-form into a composite strand, and crepe where pairs of plies are re-twisted to reform into the yarn. There was also only wool or cotton, both of which respond to the complex twisting of knitting in a similar way. As soon as manufacturers started to introduce different fibres, people found that the look of their knitting changed.

The other issue, of course, is technique; and Ii didn't know this was an issue until I started looking at internet sites, because before then, pretty well everyone I had ever met had knitted in more or less the same way.

As there is really only one basic fact about knitting: a previously made loop is held in place by another loop, assuming you have a matching pair of points to work on, and you wrap the yarn round with the same tension, no tugging, then the result is the result for that yarn.

Somehow, the traditional knitting techniques which took hundreds of years to perfect have not been necessarily passed on. I cringe when I see some of these pictures and videos on websites. Again manufaacturers are keen for you to buy their wares, but then fail to say, "for best results, use a traditional knitting technique."

I am always grateful that I was taught to hold my knitting "properly." I often get reprimanded for using that word in knitting forums, but then I am old and only a mere male.

Best wishes, John

When frustrated by K1P1 or K2P2 ribbings, I look for other ribbing patterns to use. This can make the ribbing portion less a chore, more a discovery. (Thank you, Barbara Walker). I also like to use a twisted rib if I'm sticking to K1P1 or K2P2.

I was intimidated about the Master Knitter argyle sock, because I'd decided to follow a specific pattern to the letter (a radical thing for me to do)and it has 2" of K1P1. Amazingly, the ribbing has turned out very nicely. I'm using KnitPicks Palette yarn on a #1 needle--is it the yarn, or have I gotten better at ribbing without knowin it?

The seed stitch swatch for Master Knitting Level I gave me a lot of trouble, too, as the goal was a nice even tension with no holes.

Like John, I'd been knitting for eons without a thought to all of this, and learned of other people's frustrations on the message boards. Is it contageous, is it the great variety of yaarns, or have I just become more picky? I've looked at a few items I knit years ago and they seem OK.

Jude

quote:

Originally posted by obscure:
I was intimidated about the Master Knitter argyle sock, because I'd decided to follow a specific pattern to the letter (a radical thing for me to do)and it has 2" of K1P1. Amazingly, the ribbing has turned out very nicely. I'm using KnitPicks Palette yarn on a #1 needle--is it the yarn, or have I gotten better at ribbing without knowin it?
Jude

One thing I noticed while going through the MK program is that worsted weight yarn is harder to control for me than other yarns. I'm getting better at it, but I learned to knit using DK weight and thinner yarns. When I was frustrated with my edge rowing out I pulled out some smaller needles and ACRYLIC yarn and the knitting was perfect. So go figure.

I find ribbing worsted weight with the 4.5mm needles especially unsatisfying. For Level 2, I'm knitting the ribbed swatches with the same needles I'm using for the button hole bands (which specify using smaller needles)because the result is so much nicer.

Jude,

I think it is a combination of being more picky when we know our work will be closely judged, and a little bit of contagion. When I read someone's post that this stitch or that stitch is not right, without photographs we don't know whether there are uneven loops, overly elongated stitches, or someone who expects all stitches in all combinations to look exactly the same.

I know about the elongation issues with the knit stitch before a purl when doing multi-stitch ribs or a cable but I personally believe that a slight size difference is the nature of the beast in many of these situations and if I were to obsess on creating perfectly equal stitches I would never finish. But I have seen situations where the difference is VERY pronounced, and to me that would be a technique issue.

I also find that after I have let an item sit for a while, I'm more impressed with the quality of my work. A few years ago I made my husband a simple crew neck sweater but I fitted it to his wide chest, relatively small waist by doing some waist-line shaping, and it was an intarsia camouflage pattern. When I finished it I was just happy to have it done. A few years later I look at it, I'm impressed with the quality of my work <g> and wonder if I can replicate the work for another sweater he wants.

And as to John's point about yarns, it's not only the yarns but the combination of yarns with needles that can subtly, or not so subtly affect are finished product.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: KT,

I don't know if others use this trick but it has worked well for me. In 2X2 rib I place the right needle in the first purl after the two knit stitches, give a short tug on the yarn, wrap and complete the stitch. This takes up the slack in the second knit stitch that is caused by bringing the yarn from the back to the front. Watch your fabric move slightly toward you at the point where the yarn comes between the stitches. This works well on cables, ribbing, and end stitches that are too loose. It is important to place the needle in the purl stitch before tugging so that the stitch is not pulled too tight. Tug only on the one purl stitch that is left of the last knit stitch in the pattern group. Hope this helps.

Pam

KT--

Isn't it nice to pull out something knit a long time ago and notice how nicely it was done, even though we may have learned "new, improved" techniques in the meantime! Always room for improvement, but many of us weren't all that bad in our "ignorance."

Pam--

For me, a little tug on the K before the P works. It is interesting to learn all of the ways we have of dealing with something that may annoy us greatly yet not be noticed by an non-knitter. I'm thinking much depends or our knitting style, yarn/needles of the day, how our most impotant tools--our hands--are feeling, etc.

Jude (who bears the scars of "the War of the Roses" in the garden center--can't seem to wear gloves consistently)

The twist in the fiber is, as mentioned, a result of how the yarn was spun. Rox is correct about the 'angle' of the twist in the yarn. It depends totally on how the spinner did the singles and then how they are plied. And Rox, you are correct, the spinner is supposed to ply in the opposite direction from the singles twist.

The challenge for Leslie is that she is using ribbon - that has no twist! It is a manmade fiber which is different.

Leslie, I have the same challenge and the only suggestion I can offer is try keeping your yarn up close to the tips of the needles when shifting from the K to P or P to K. I find I knit a lot looser with ribbon and unlike wool or cotton - ribbon does not fall in place after some 'wash and wear' quite as well as wool or even cotton does.

Good luck. I would also agree that perhaps you could try another type of purl. Maybe do a twisted knit stich and a regular purl? That might tighten up the stitches.

J

Correction! I don't know where I read that Leslie was using ribbon! Sorry! So I will correct my own notation! But I would still suggest a KTB on the knitted part of the rib to see if that tightens up the stitch.

Sorry for my error. It's early and I read too fast.

J

quote:

Originally posted by Pam:
I don't know if others use this trick but it has worked well for me. In 2X2 rib I place the right needle in the first purl after the two knit stitches, give a short tug on the yarn, wrap and complete the stitch. This takes up the slack in the second knit stitch that is caused by bringing the yarn from the back to the front. Watch your fabric move slightly toward you at the point where the yarn comes between the stitches. This works well on cables, ribbing, and end stitches that are too loose. It is important to place the needle in the purl stitch before tugging so that the stitch is not pulled too tight. Tug only on the one purl stitch that is left of the last knit stitch in the pattern group. Hope this helps.

Pam

Ah! That's one I haven't tried yet and I understand how it would work. I'm going to work on that sweater some more this evening and I'm excited to try it. Thank you!